You have got to be joking!

If you think politics don’t belong at Burning Man, I have bad news for you: you’re soaking in them like it’s Mudman all over again and that will always be the case. 

Burning Man isn’t just an art festival in the desert. It’s a pop-up city. A temporary society with values and systems and norms and a hell of a lot of shared assumptions about what matters. Guess how those assumptions, values, and systems were arrived at? Yep. Politics.

Radical inclusion? Political. Gifting instead of commerce? Political. Radical self-expression? Political. Civic responsibility? So political!

Hell, there are plenty of politics in individual theme camps!

Here’s the thing: politics isn’t just elections or whatever two-party slapfight is happening on CNN. Politics is how we, as humans, decide who gets what, who does what, and how we live together without stabbing each other with rebar (though you’re not still using rebar I hope). 

It’s not just about presidents and policies—it’s about power, resources, voice, and community, and there’s no opting out unless you go live on an island by yourself.​

• The official theme of Burning Man in ‘08 was “The American Dream!” for fuck’s sake!
  
  
• What do you think the decision to build the 2024 Temple out of reclaimed materials was? A political statement!​
  ​

Saying “No politics at Burning Man” stands in direct opposition to the fact that artists don’t create in a vacuum and are always influenced by the world around them, whose power structure is arrived at via the politics that surround us all the time.

To ask artists not to provide commentary on some of the most important issues in our world is to ask them to water down their art until it’s just decoration, bereft of significance other than “it’s pretty” or “how cool.” And that's fine, of course! There has certainly been some incredibly cool but not particularly meaningful art at Burning Man. 

But imagine if Banksy’s motto was, “No politics” or someone told Picasso to keep politics out of Guernica. Or told the Ukranians above not to express their intense feelings about the war in their country...

Art is protest. It’s hope. It’s grief. It’s rebellion. And meaningful art is frequently political as hell. 

Even the vibe of “this exists for no economic reason, just because someone dreamed it and built it and now it’s here” that we see in some beautiful but not explicitly meaningful art on the playa is a giant middle finger to rote consumer capitalism and the cult of productivity.

You think Burning Man is somehow outside the US political system? See 2018’s gauntlet of law enforcement run by the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs between Reno and Gerlach. And…you know that Burning Man happens on federal land that is available for we the public to use because of…politics, right?  

Or, are you aware that the Central Nevada Health District is proposing increasing the inspection fee for camps gifting most food and some drinks from the current $50 to between $375 and $525 depending on what's being offered? Guess how we can oppose and potentially stop that? Yeah, politics.

This is not an exaggeration. The admin is unilaterally doing this to non-citizens, and threatening citizens with it as well.

And it’s going to get a lot worse. We’re only two months into this.

Don't think you're safe because you're not coming here to protest, you're not trying to immigrate, or you're "just going to Burning Man." These people do not care. If there's any hint about you of anything they don't like, from your racial or ethnic identity to your tattoos to what's on your phone, they can seize you and you'll be lucky if all they do is send you back to your home country.

Will they send you to a prison in El Salvador like they're doing to others? Chances are not, but is it worth risking to go to a festival? And is it worth giving tourism dollars to America when this country is doing it to other people? 

The rural areas of Nevada you go through to get to Burning Man heavily support Trump. Pershing County, where Burning Man is held, went 76% for Trump to 21% for Harris, for example. How much more strongly do you think their sheriffs there supported Trump than even the general Pershing County citizens did? 

And as anyone who went to Burning Man in 2018 during the first Trump admin knows, the federal government, not just local law enforcement, can also make going to the playa dangerous. The federal Bureau of Indian Affairs presence on the route between the Reno area and Burning Man that year was turned into a gauntlet of pulling people over and searching their vehicles. (Thank god for the peoples’ hero, Dildo Ackbar!)

Will that be repeated? Who knows, but it’s a risk. 

Trump’s first admin was carnival clownish. Now he’s more like Pennywise, from Stephen King’s “It” - still a clown but now a scary one that's eating metaphorical (or actual...let's not put it past him) children. 

As a visitor here, you would be:

1. Helping to prop up America via your spending. Please don’t come here. Don’t buy our goods and services. The only thing that’s going to make Trump’s voters care is when it personally affects them (and in some cases, not even then - the groupthink is very strong). We as a country need to learn what it means to fuck around and find out. Help us learn, please!
   
   
2. Subject to the whims of the Trump admin, who can do almost literally whatever they want with you no matter what anyone thinks the law says. 
   
   You are not immune just because you're here from Europe instead of Central America. You’re also not immune just because you come from a country that is a traditional ally of the US. You can be arrested and sent in chains to prison in another country to rot if they feel like it.

I’m not telling you that going to Burning Man is bad. I love Burning Man. It’s been a huge part of my life for the past 15 years. 

I also know this call for foreigners to skip Burning Man will be resented by some, including people in Org management whose opinions I personally care about and who are working to resolve Burning Man's current financial difficulties. And for that I'm sorry.

But if there's ever a time to spend personal credibility or social mojo or whatever you want to call it, it's now as far as I'm concerned. I only have two platforms that anyone might pay attention to, and this is one of them, so I’m using it, for whatever small good it may do.

(If you’re interested in my other platform, I started a podcast the week after the 2024 elections called No Tacos For Tyrants. You won’t like it if your idea of a good time is fellating Trump or Elon. )

Why not go to a regional outside of the US instead of supporting America with tourism? There are so many, all over the world you can pick from, and you can still maintain your connection to Burning Man that way. https://regionals.burningman.org/

The next four I pulled from their website on June 7, 2024.

And sure, they've also written articles about how they're "not a festival" on their website, That's their attempt at branding, but it's not like they used the word festival for so long and in so many places accidentally. They know it's a festival. Everybody knows it's a festival. 

It's not the same kind of festival as Coachella or Tomorrowland are (aka commercial music festivals), however, which is what I think the Org is trying to get across. But just because a pug and a german shepherd are very different types of dogs doesn't mean they're not both dogs.

I ask because the meanings of words are ultimately based on how we as humans collectively use them. Let's see how Burning Man is generally referred to:

Yeah. Most of the world just calls it what it is.

So don't be culty. If Elon Musk said, "Teslas are no longer going to be called cars, now they're hypervehicles" everyone but some of his cultier fans would roll their eyes and continue calling them cars (or SUVs or trucks) because that's what they are and cultiness is cringey. 

​Burning Man is my favorite festival, in any case, and I look forward to participating for my 13th time this year. See you in the dust!

You can blame me (Dr. Yes) for that. I could tell you I'm sorry, but do you really want me to lie to you? ​Watching thousands of burners fall for my prank was the absolute peak of my Burning Man experience this year! Why'd I do it? I'll explain at the end of the post.

This is what the view from 8:15 & B normally looks like at night:

Here's what it looked like somewhere near 1 am early Wed morning, when Rufus was scheduled to perform.

For those who don't know what I'm referring to, I submitted a fake camp called Dusty Throwdown and a fake lineup for it to the Rockstar Librarian, who publishes a partial guide to who is playing where and when at Burning Man each year. Camps/art cars submit their lineups, and she puts together the guide, to be released around Tuesday before the gates open each year. 8:15 & B was my camp's (Friendgasm) address this year, and as we were having an event that night I thought it'd be fun to have some foot traffic on the the street, which is normally pretty sleepy at night.

I was worried that the Librarian (she has a real name, obviously, but I'll use her pseudonym here) would catch me if I was too lazy about the prank, but I also knew that she's quite busy in the runup to BM, so vetting listings is not her priority. I made sure that none of the big draws - Kerala Dust, Rüfüs Du Sol, or Alison Wonderland - had conflicting tour dates, and really only included the Thursday lineup with Alison because I felt like it wasn't believable to have a camp Rüfüs would play at only have one night of music. It was already seriously straining credibility that an act the size of Rüfüs du Sol would be at a camp at 8:15 & B, and I thought that alone would give it away to many people, but hope springs eternal!

When an early version of the Rockstar Librarian (RSL) leaked, and it not only had my fake lineup in it but also a star next to it indicating the Librarian called it out as a recommended event, I was pretty confident this was going to work. Seeing my campmates react to the listing confirmed that:

I knew my campmates were largely big Rüfüs fans, but I had no idea at least a couple of them were very into Kerala Dust, and were especially excited because apparently Kerala Dust has never performed in the US before. 

Unfortunately, their love of Kerala Dust ended up revealing the joke to them when the group got word that they were 'scheduled' to perform at Burning Man, and posted on social that it was fake. 

And really, that was ok, because my campmates were always going to figure it out once we got to playa and they realized there's no Dusty Throwdown in the neighborhood. That plus the straining you have to do to believe that an act the size of Rüfüs would be playing at 8:15 & B would give it away to them.

In the meantime though, I got to enjoy seeing comments like the below:

All day Tuesday people were stopping at our camp to ask where Dusty Throwdown was, and campmates were reporting they were hearing talk of the supposed Rüfüs show all around the playa, but it really picked up once it got dark. Quite a few people were looking for Kerala Dust (who were supposed to play 9pm-11pm), and we knew the crowd would be much larger for Rüfüs.

I had scheduled some random DJ I'm unfamiliar with called Persephone at 11 pm, during which we had a bit of a break and things emptied out temporarily, but by about 12:30 am the street was so packed that we killed our plan to blast Rüfüs' music at 'showtime,' for fear of starting a stampede. We probably didn't really need to worry given that we can all guess what substances many of them were on, and alcohol wasn't one of them, but we didn't want to risk it.

Everyone in our camp, and in a couple of the neighboring camps I'd let in on the joke earlier that day, thoroughly enjoyed the people watching as well as interacting with the crowd pretending we were just excited to have Rüfüs playing in our neighborhood and wondering where they might be, although strangely almost nobody was interested in coming into our bar to enjoy a nice, fancy hand-crafted cocktail. It's almost like they were preoccupied with something else that wasn't happening and weren't in the moment....

The crowd eventually dissipated on its own, leaving a remarkable lack of moop behind, though some die-hards hung on until at least an hour and a half after Rüfüs' scheduled 'showtime,' really hoping beyond hope that maybe the Aussie trio was just on playa time or something (although again, there was no camp in our neighborhood that looked even remotely capable of hosting Rüfüs). We did get some people inquiring about Alison Wonderland two days later, but she's not nearly as popular with burners as Rüfüs, and no doubt word had gotten around about Dusty Throwdown being fake by then as well. 

I could tell you I did it to "teach a lesson" to DJ chasers or something, but no, that's not why I did it. If you want to go listen to DJs every night at Burning Man, you do you.

I could tell you I did it to demonstrate the value of immediacy, but that'd be pretentious bullshit.

I did it because pranks, shenanigans, and fuckery that don't hurt anyone are some of my favorite parts about Burning Man, and I saw an opportunity to create a prank that a lot of people could be part of, if unknowingly in the moment. And lest you forget, Burning Man was founded out of the Cacophony Society.

As a campmate phrased it, "You saw a chain, and you yanked it." That's true, but I yanked that particular chain because it was one connected to a lot of people and one I could pull on without anyone getting harmed. I wanted to create a prank that was harmless enough that the people who were the 'victims' of it could easily remember it fondly in the future and smile, even if a bit ruefully, at the memory. I've heard a couple upset people say their 'time was wasted' but I can only laugh at the absurdity of that complaint at Burning Man.

Ultimately, if you fell for the prank and are still reading, I hope you're chuckling along with me. Most of us weren't there when Daft Punk didn't play, but you were there when Rüfüs didn't play! You were right there listening to them not play! Years from now, you'll be able to regale new burners with the tale of the epic night that you didn't see Rüfüs du Sol play and they will only be able to widen their eyes and gasp a little as you suddenly become 3x as sexually attractive to them. 

No matter how many times any of us see Rüfüs du Sol play in the future, we'll all always have that one magical night together that we were Rüfüs-less. No Rüfüs at all. Not a Rüfüs in sight, even when that RV slowly rolled past and everyone cheered thinking that might be them.

It was glorious, and you were there.

P.S. Ms. Librarian - I feel silly calling you that as I know your real name perfectly well, but I just wanted to apologize for using your publication for the prank. It was nothing personal at all, and I know you put a ton of work and time into it, which I and many burners appreciate. 

​Dr. Yes: Why don’t we start with how you got started? What was the process that birthed Everywhen? 

​Mathew: That's a long story. But a condensed form would be that I was at Burning Man as one of the Temple crew builders. And so most years I would be part of the crew to build a temple. And on the 2016 Temple, the David Best one, his final one, a lot of us, you know, we made a lot of very strong friendships  that year, and the following year 2017, we thought, let's go to Juplaya, let's see what it's like to be on Playa outside of Burning Man.

That’s quite an experience, right? And it's really Burning Man expert mode. You bring your camp and there's nothing, nothing out there. It's you and the elements, you are truly in the wild west. And some, some bad things happened. You know, you have your friends, and you think that your friends vet the people that are there. And those assumptions are always challenged out there when you're depending on one another for desert survival.

And, some things lead to the notion that, hey, maybe we should vet who's there, make sure that we have food, make sure that we have community safety and that kind of thing. And so what happened was we just started going out there year over year. And so that's really our desert camping group.

The other group I was part of was the chapel chimes build in 2019. It was a friend I built with for several years - we also met through the temple crew. And very last minute, he said, yes, we're gonna bring this project to the desert. And this is like, May June. So all those people that would want to be part of a Burning Man art project were already engaged to, you know, whatever project they were attached to. I was mining all the different Burning Man groups to see what sort of crew I could put together as a project manager for that build on Playa in 2019. We liked each other, actually quite a bit.
 
And so we thought maybe we should design a city temple for the 2020 Burn. The notion was let's make something that's ADA accessible and let's build it in the city. So that for those that don't want to make the trek all the way out to the deep Playa to THE temple, they can go to the local neighborhood temple.

Burning Man said that no, that's a little too out there. We can't have inner city art of that size. So you know, we then targeted the inner playa. The notion was that our group was going to build a reusable temple. And so that was gonna be brought to the Unscruz (Santa Cruz) regional, and then finally to Burning Man.

Dr. Yes: You were the flame the moths came to!

We did not intend to start an event, we were just a couple of friends who grabbed our other friends. And we went out to the desert, installed some art and sort of brought the ethos of the original Burning Man project with us. A social experiment where we're trying some new things.

So the BLM said, you know, you all should get a permit. Apply for a permit for 25k for the next year. All right, okay, we'll do that.

Well, that didn't happen and 25k was in retrospect too ambitious. And 2020 was just insane. We went home after that renegade burn and we assembled a board of directors, and it was basically like, you, you, you, you, and you because, we're just a group of friends and what do we know, we're just going to keep trying keep trying to do this.

We formed a nonprofit. I think was incorporated in September 2020, might be October, somewhere around there. And we started operations, and people began to apply. And they're like, “Yay, this is not Burning Man.” But, some people who have been involved with the Org started to come in and then they were like, “Oh, this is not Burning Man.”

People were getting frustrated and there was a lot of internal strife, because our way of thinking was a bit different, because why replicate what already exists?

So we thought, “Let's erase the Burning Man principles from our culture, because maybe they're restricting us from exploring new ideas.” What does that mean? I don't know yet, but it's an experiment. We're going back to that radical social experiment that birthed the huge event we know and love today. 

We talked a bunch and decided we’re going to focus on reusability, we're going to focus on upcycling, we're going to focus on making sure that the art that's displayed here is also available elsewhere, whether they do or do not burn it at the time there. We had no burning in our event, as 1) we couldn’t manage it and 2) we sort of as burners at large have always been saying this structure would be great for you know, the homeless issue, this other one would be great for installing it somewhere else. We burn it all down though, which of course allows art of great magnitude to exist, but temporarily right? All that material just goes up in flames.
 
In any case, that permit for 2021 at Block Rock was not granted by the BLM. We didn't have a lawyer at that point and we’re dealing with the BLM and larger Department of the Interior. There’s also a changeover in the federal administration in 2021 and of course Covid was still around. They basically said to us, “You’re too new to handle this. You have no track record. Talk to us again when you have one.”

It was a traumatizing experience for everybody, both for those that wanted to come and then even more so for those trying to create this event. We had ticket sales online then had to take them offline, and then back online and offline, because the word that we were getting from the BLM was changing day by day, but I think we learned a lesson there, which is that transparency is good, but too much blow-by-blow transparency can be confusing. We tried to be an honest and authentic organization, but we also realized that some people just don't understand the forces at play.

So we ultimately pivoted after looking at 41 different alternative sites. We split up this list across the entire team, we all checked out the sites. And the location that we went to in the Mojave was… it really spoke to me so I'm like, “Okay, let's go here. Let's check it out. Make sure the vibe is right.”

It was and so we pivoted over to the Mojave, moved the date to October, and we had our first official event in October 2021.

That being said, we just continued to plan our Juplaya outing as an unofficial event using the model that we created back in JuPlaya 2020 and Renegade 2020. So that just kept going. And I remember Mark Hall, the Black Rock BLM manager, saying “Matt, you guys just can't stay away from the playa can you?” I’m like, “No, we love it here.” It’s my passion and the rest of our team's passion. So here we are, in 2022, the permit has been issued, sort of – we have an MOU. [Memorandum of Understanding].

​Dr. Yes: MOU for Black Rock or for Mojave?
 
Mathew: For Black Rock for 2022.

Dr. Yes: Did you need a permit for Mojave? Or is that BLM land?

Mathew: The Mojave site is private land, though we needed permission from the Kern County Fire Department. And it's actually a lot easier to do it on private land. A lot easier. Public Land is more difficult. You would think it wouldn’t be, but it is. More expensive too.

The way that permitting works at Black Rock is they really just issue a permit weeks before the event. This is true for Burning Man as well. What we have in place with them right now is an MOU that says, we're going to issue you this permit as long as you follow this payment structure.

This is the cost recovery agreement between our entity and the BLM, so that they’re not incurring debt to the taxpayers on our behalf, that we're covering any of the use of resources that they will be deploying, which means everyone from archaeologists, to biologists, to, of course, law enforcement officers, to their commanders, to the folks within the office are doing all their the NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act] reviews to make sure that they can conduct an environmental impact study.

There's a lot that goes into making sure that the land is preserved. I honestly don't know too much about what they all have to do to sign off on the permit, but there's a lot of cost there. So, we are good to go if we continue to make our payments to them.

When we first applied for this year we wanted to extend our gift to the Juplaya audience. What I mean by that is no fence, no gate. Bring the porta potties as we always have done, add medical, and allow heavy equipment to be there to help the artists install and de-install.

All was well until the BLM said, so you're good to go but you need to add a fence, you need to add a gate, you need to relocate within the playa.

That seemed to begin this narrative of us trying creating a walled garden at Juplaya and that we're a well-funded org and that we are just trying to grab everyone's money, which is a narrative that I can understand. Juplaya is free, and people can create their own event. But what some people don't remember is that we're a nonprofit and our primary mission is to give that money that's used for tickets to the artists. We give about 60% of revenue that comes in from tickets to the artists. 

​Dr. Yes: You’re giving 60% of ticket revenue to artists? How? That's a giant percentage.
 
Mathew: Yeah, our operating costs are high, but currently everyone is a volunteer so nobody is getting paid to do this on our end. That’s what lets us direct ticket money to artists.
 
Dr. Yes: And you’re talking direct grants here?

​Mathew: Yeah. We’re a 501(c)(3) and can give direct grants. This is important to us because I went through the journey of being an artist myself, I've seen the sort of the hoops you had to go through back in 2020, so I'm familiar with the journey of the artists through either artists I've worked under or myself as a prospective honoraria grant recipient. 

​Dr. Yes: I wanted to clarify one thing about 2020 Renegade. You were the “shitty city” as I heard it referred to later? I don't mean that any kind of insulting way. That's just the term that was thrown around.

​Mathew: That’s what they called us, yeah. Okay, we're the shitty city. We had our shitty city mayors. When you have to deputize people that never signed up to become the mayor, to sort of keep the chaos in check a little, you don't necessarily have the luxury of choosing the best person suited for that role. It's sort of like ok, you like staying up at night, and you'd like to be up in the daytime, so you’re the co-mayors of this village in the city now.

Dr. Yes: I really like the idea that it all evolved kind of spontaneously from the 150 people your group brought.

I’m sure you have seen the comments, but there are definitely some dispersed campers who go to Juplaya who are pretty salty about you guys. Do they have any real reason to be concerned that you will impact their experience to any great degree? Can you give me some numbers like how many acres you’ll occupy, how many people you’ll have?

Mathew: Sure. We have a class III permit. There's only one class IV permit right now. We all know who holds it. And so, class III is the maximum you can have at Black Rock desert. We’re capped at 1000 people and 100 acres.

​Dr. Yes: That's it? 100 acres? That's pretty tiny. The playa is something like 640,000 acres in size I think.

​Mathew: Yeah, so we are microscopic. If you zoom out, and you had a little city point on a map, you wouldn’t even see it. There is a closure order that’s going to be put into place that will be larger than 100 acres, but we have no control over it - the BLM forces it on us. And the reason why it exists is so that people don't go driving through our city at 100 miles per hour and run people over. It is for the safety of those that are camping there.
 
The fence was also something that we were told we have no choice over. We tried to do a virtual fence, we tried to do a light-based fence, but they're like no, no, it’s got to be a physical fence.

Some other things are going to be a little different from Burning Man. For instance, we’ll have trash dumpsters on site. These are things that we experimented with in Mojave, and I'll tell you I've heard people be like, “How DARE there be a trash dump? How dare you do that?” And then 12 hours later, they’ve switched to, ”This the best thing ever.” It's so nice to not have to manage the trash for people and for us not to worry so much that attendees are tying trash bags to the roof of their car and losing it all it over 447, or abusing peoples’ private dumpsters in Reno.

At first, people hated it, and then later they were like thank you, thank you. It was a neat experiment and we’re going to continue that.

​Dr. Yes: Burning Man already pays USS to collect and haul out peoples' human waste. I don't see paying a company to collect and haul out another kind of waste as being any fundamentally different, personally, but clearly it's a pretty controversial thing to do in the burner community.

This actually leads me to kind of something I wanted to talk about: what are some other ways you guys are distinguishing yourself from Burning Man. You talked about how in your impetus to create Everywhen one of the things you didn't want to do was just create a mirror event because other than the fact that everyone can't get tickets to the Burn, what's the point? What's the on-the-ground experience going to be like that’s different from Burning Man?

​Mathew: That's a good question. I think the first thing that I personally have always thought as a burner that started in 2012 was: Did I miss something good by waiting until 2012 to go? And I think a lot of new burners share that feeling… or maybe I'm not new Burner any more and am now middle-aged...

​Dr. Yes: Yeah, now you’re middle-aged, man. Me too.

Mathew: I sometimes think back like, “Oh, how cool would it have been to be on Baker Beach and been there in the very beginning when it then moved to the Black Rock.” And I was fortunate enough to have worked with some of the founders through all the temple projects, including the inventor of the Man Jerry James in 2018, in Temple Galaxia and so I got to hear some of the intimate stories.

You know, 30 years ago, it was kind of a cool moment when BM got started. Your question was how is it different from Burning Man, and one thing I would say is before answering that, when I looked at the old videos, from like ’95, ‘96, I'm like, this is a good target for a maximum. Because at that point, you have a mix of janky art with some organization and more freedoms are still in place. When you get too large, you have to put more and more restrictions in place.
 
But how we’re different is something we’re still answering ourselves, because it’s not a binary yes or no thing. And that's something that we've been trying to answer ourselves. The first thing we thought about was: What don't we like, or if we had the power to make changes, what would we want to see?. First, obviously, was the use and reuse of material so that the art can always be rebuilt or reused rather than burned.

Number two, is that there's a very verticalized network of vendors and organization within Burning Man. That makes sense -they're 30 plus years old. But we wanted to allow people to have a more direct impact on the experience. So, what we did at Mojave, and what we did at Juplaya, and what we're going to continue to do is use what we call like a partner network, or just internal partners.

What I mean by that is, the gate is run by a camp that’s not the Everywhen org. LNT is run by a camp that’s not Everywhen. The ranger equivalent - they're called the Loco Ocos - are another separate camp. And so what that allows us to do is, you know, switch in different parts of the org that maybe are not performing well, but also allows other moves.

For instance, let's say that our Everywhen Org does a bad job of managing the artists. We could theoretically be swapped out for a different organizing Org, and they would still have these partner camps in place. And so this is a distributed power system or, or maybe more of a representative system of the playa community at large. By distributing governance, we can make ourselves less reliant on a single organization. 

The other thing that we're sort of thinking towards is, as an art incubator, we'd like to make more resources available to the artists. So for instance, a future goal is to rent out a bay at the Generator in Reno, so that artists working on art for Everywhen can share a space.

And then we'd like to create friendly competitions between camps and artists. In the future, we're going to say, you know, this art project has this award or recognition for most upcycled components, fastest build cleanest LNT, something like that. Wee're still working on what that would look like. But the goal is to have some friendly competition, get, perhaps, a little prestige, which maybe helps the artist build a resume for themselves in some small way. “Judged best of show at Everywhen” or something like that. It's about helping artists however we can. That's where we're going as an organization.

​Dr. Yes: I'm curious if your perception of the Burning Man Org has changed at all since you've been running Everywhen and now that you're on the inside of running an event? Because obviously the Org gets a lot of shit from different angles. Some complaints have a basis in reality, some are just people being unreasonable dicks, but certainly almost nobody complaining about the Org has never tried to put on an event like this in the Black Rock or somewhere similarly remote. 

​Mathew: I think I learned some of the rules that are in place are mandates from the government rather than internally decided by Burning Man. What I don't have clarity on is whether Burning Man helped shape that government mandate over the last 30 years. There might just be sort of cultural norms that were established because of the way some of the original Cacophony Society folks developed into Burning Man out there.

​Dr. Yes: So I was looking at your principles: Do No Harm, and LNT seem pretty reasonable and the latter is required by BLM, regardless. Your third and final principle is Tell Tall Tales. Where did that come from? It’s kind of fun, and I like the lack of pretension.

​Mathew: Oh, boy, I think, you know, we're social creatures, and people like stories. I think one of the things I like most about Burning Man is the ability to suspend belief and just accept the reality that's given to you. So that can be like, you know, method acting, it could be like, improv, right? Where you just want to riff off each other's distorted reality bubble that's created around you. I think that's a really important concept to bring forward as an art-centric event: to nurture and curate wonder, the celebration of the surreal and the artistic expression that each camp or each art piece is delivering.

And so we really wanted to make sure that that was still intact, as a goal of the organization that yes, we're focusing on upcycling, yes, we're gonna have some friendly competitions, or judging in the future for, you know, best of shows, so on so forth. But most importantly, I think it's really important to build community to develop stories, to come home thinking, “Wow, what the fuck was that, and to tell others about what they experienced."

So the telling of tall tales is just a way of encouraging people to be be part of creating a story, to invoke that that sense of wonder we all used to have as children, and also as a goal. That's why one question that we had to answer in the very beginning was, “Are we allowing in kids?”

​And the answer is yes, after some debate, with the reason being is that we need to be thinking about our future generations, and creating the space for them to develop and mature, learn new things, but do so while surrounded by wonder. Maybe someday they’ll be inspired to create their own things that bring wonder to others…whatever the future brings. So telling tall tales is about the positivity that we have when people can create wonder for each other.

​Dr. Yes:  What are your plans for the future? Where do you see yourselves? Do you do have ambitions to grow past 1000 people? Can you can grow past 1000 people? Is there a path to grow into a class IV permit for example, with the BLM? Do you intend to keep having multiple events per year? 

Mathew: Good question. You know, because we're born out of Black Rock, that's definitely where we feel most at home as frequent playa campers at Juplaya and Burning Man. I enjoy that canvas because it is a big blank, empty expanse, Mojave is a little different. At night, especially under a full moon they both speak to me differently. Black Rock is sort of like being on a smooth moon, whereas Mojave is like you're inside of a moon crater. They're both lunar-feeling experiences, but with very different environmental considerations.

Mojave is definitely a lot more difficult than Black Rock. You have actual sandstorms and there's mechanical wear and tear from them that far exceeds the dust we’re used to, so your locks break faster, your zippers break faster, etc. Sandstorms are harsh. You need face shields, and full body protection just to survive outside during their sandstorms. And those sandstorms sometimes last the entire day with no forewarning, so the challenge is how are you going to celebrate and enjoy yourself and be protected against it instead of just hanging out in your tent or RV all day? So these are our new problems that we're going to solve over time.

On your question about our future, I think the goal is to have three events. Right now we have two, and we want to have the events grow sustainably, but we would never want to grow beyond 25,000 attendees. We feel like that’s a good balance between size and the scale of art that brings, and maintaining a little more intimacy than Black Rock City offers these days.

The way we're going to try to build that intimacy as we grow our Constellation City is based off of a petroglyph that researchers assume is based off of the Seven Sisters meaning the Pleiades constellation. We’ll use that pattern to create little rings of camps that are themselves connected to each other by roads serving as spokes. By having each ring be capped at 2500, or 3000, or whatever the number is, each ring would have its own identity over time, and build its own culture. And you'd be able to go from township (each ring) to township while maintaining more of a close intimate feel amongst a larger population. That’s how I think we can responsibly grow to 25k and stop it there while maintaining a neighborhood feel. ​

​Dr. Yes: You talked about how originally you had wanted to put a temple in Black Rock City? Are you allowing art in the city camping areas at Everywhen? Or is that not up to you? Is that up to the BLM?

​Mathew: Well, we have art parks within the neighborhoods. The question about if art can be installed in a city within a camp? Yes. This is not really a place that we've developed or put in rules yet. Maybe we never will have a rule about that. But we do, as a general statement have centralized art parks, in which all the art could be located, though doesn’t have to be.

​Dr. Yes: That’s another way that it is distinctly different as a participant, I think from Black Rock City, because just navigating around your city is going to feel dramatically different.
​
I'm assuming based on the fact that tickets still available, it hasn't sold out for this year yet? Is that right?

​Mathew: That’s right, tickets are still available. There's been a lot of pushback to Everywhen and unfortunately we’ve had a hard time getting in front of our target audience at all, because our posts get removed immediately. 

And there's unfortunately a narrative that we are commercializing Juplaya. Remember, as I said, our original intent was just to create an area where art is legally authorized to be installed, where we have the authorization to give funds to the artists, to have heavy equipment support, and of course, porta potties. But, the Bureau of Land Management said, no, you need a fence and a gate and tickets. So our original goal of gifting to the rest of Juplaya has been restricted by the BLM.

I think our target audience is those people that don't want to go to a non-event like Juplaya or those people that don't have the infrastructure or the camp support that they would need to effectively go to Juplaya.

So again, we're bringing out medical as there's a lot of emergencies out there. The woman I'm dating, she broke her leg out there July 2020, and there were no medical services there. She had to go all the way out to Reno. Not that, you know, an injury of that severity wouldn't bring it to Reno anyway, but we would have ambulances on site and we’ll have first aid on site, which is different from Juplaya.

Yes, we are definitely struggling as Burning Man did their first few years… cash flow, what cash flow? What investors? This is totally grassroots, none of us are millionaires. We're all just trying to make this happen out of passion, because I don't know, we like gifting. And because 2022 is here, and a lot of events are going on again, we're just not really in people's awareness right now. We have $50k that we need to raise for this month. And we have no idea where that's going to come from. Every day is like, “Are we going to survive today?”

We've got the permit, we secured the playa, this is a new canvas in which we are going to invent a new Burning Man or something totally different. It's here, we did it. We just need other people to say, ”Let's do it! Let’s go to Everywhen!”

​Dr. Yes: The reason I asked about selling out was if you look down the road, you want to go to 25,000 people. Let's say you get to the point where you have the problem, which is good to have, and which is Burning Man's problem. They could double the ticket price and still sell out. How do you think you would handle the decisions around how to distribute tickets? Or is that so far in the future that you really haven't given it serious thought? 

​Mathew: I have thought about that, and I've not been able to get a ticket to Burning Man in the main sale for years. The way I got in was by contributing directly, like through an art project. I've learned to celebrate two different events. You have Building Man, and then you have Burning Man. And to be honest, Building Man is so much more fun than Burning Man, for me.

As an art-centric nonprofit, our mission is not just to throw a party, our mission and duty is to fund art. When we get to that point, we're going to look at our mission statement and say, “What is the most important thing to do?” And I'm going to assume that the answer is going to be we will prioritize tickets to the artists, camps, and musicians. Any form of art and its form of expression will be prioritized. Because ultimately, this is a party by artists, for artists and the patrons of the arts. Unfortunately, we don't have that problem of selling out just yet, but I suspect that will guide the answer.

​Dr. Yes: I want to back up a bit to when you were talking about how you'd originally started as wanting to really give back to Juplaya. It sounds like what you were hoping to do is to gift everything you would bring to everyone. It sounds like the intention would be, and correct me if I'm wrong, to allow people who aren't part of Everywhen to come and appreciate the art. If they get injured, they could use medical services. Now that the BLM has required a fence, I'm assuming people who aren't ticketed to come in can't, or won't, be allowed to come into the fenced area and experience the art or access medical?

Mathew: Yes and no. We are forced to manage a 1000 person max population within the event, right. Because we have not sold out, this is not an issue just yet re: who’s allowed in or out because we wouldn’t have to deal with a situation where, say, 10 ticketed attendees temporarily left Everywhen to go explore the playa, and we let in 10 unticketed attendees to check out our art. The ticketed attendees would then be stranded since at max population someone can only enter after someone leaves.

That's not a problem we have at the moment. If we didn't sell out, then yes, unticketed people could go in and out as long as we managed the actual population count at 1000 or under within our bounds. The original intention was free entry in fact. The goal was that anyone that was a patron, anyone that donated would get a wristband, and that was really it. That's the only way we would distinguish people that donated or not. The idea was an experiment in a small area with the presence of facilities and medical and art, and encourage people to donate.

We wanted to not have any restrictions and continue to do how we did Juplaya before, but just enhance it. That was not allowed, unfortunately. So, we're navigating what we can do within the confines of the law and BLM. Before, we were a renegade, and these were not issues that mattered as much. Now that we're a responsible 501(c)(3) we have a duty to, as our legal team said, follow the rules.

​Dr. Yes: Oh, I get it. I didn’t mean my question as any sort of indictment. I understand it’s BLM land and you have to follow their rules. It's kind of too bad, though. I can see them not caring about the art on an institutional level, but a medical team and ambulances are net goods for everyone to be able to use, assuming the capacity is there. It’s too bad that there's no compromise to be found. But I guess, you know, government…

​Mathew: We tried! If there's someone that's reading this and can help us in some way, we would love to speak to them!

​Dr. Yes: How do you view yourselves? As cousins to Burning Man? Or is it more like a dog and an elephant uncomfortably sharing the same space? I don't mean to keep coming back to Burning Man so much, but I run a Burning Man site and I'm talking to you mostly because you grew out of the Burning Man community [and Juplaya, which has significant overlap with the BM community]. So how do you view your relationship to that event?

Mathew: Well, let’s look at the ticket sales. And the ticket sales sort of tells a story about our standing within the world of Burning Man. And what I mean by that is, if you look at the regional network, they tend to serve the local region, aside from some of the big ones like Afrikaburn, but if you look at our ticket sales. 50% would be from nearby states where the event occurs, but 25% will be out of state and 25% out of the country. So, it’s a destination event for some people. That's a little bit different than most regionals.

We have had this conversation ad nauseam internally, and we're definitely burner-adjacent. I think that's sort of in line with what Larry's original vision was, which was this is a culture that's curated and developed and will spread as kind of a lifestyle or a movement. We have taken the principles out because I feel they’re logic traps at this point and that people argue their way out of or through most of Burning Man’s principles to justify whatever it is they want to do.

So, we removed that sort of handicap and we're resuming the experiment in the Black Rock Desert.

I do know that some of the founders of Burning Man have been in our orbit. For instance, Danger Ranger has gone to our Juplaya events. He's sat down with us, we all had dinner together at our dinner table. He brought some of the folks from LAGI (Land Art Generator Initiative). And, you know, we're all flirting with each other. But there is no official relationship between ourselves and Burning Man. It would help us a lot in terms of ticket sales if at least we had a blessing from one of the founders. A “yes, this is something that we like.” And I do know that yesterday. Will Roger liked the Everywhen project page. It's like yay, we are on at least one of the BM founders’ radar, which is cool. And then of course, Danger Ranger shared our Juplaya videos in the past. So that's cool, too.

But in terms of any official statement like, “Yes, this is good. We like what they're doing” … That hasn't happened. So again, no relationship between us and Burning Man, though we do see ourselves as burner adjacent.

​Dr. Yes: Did you ever consider trying to package Everywhen as a Burning Man regional? I think you'd have to adopt their principles at that point though.

​Mathew: One of the Board of Directors members who is no longer with us is an RC (regional contact) for the Unscruz regional and so Raspa, who I think is the head of the regional network, did contact her and asked if we wanted to become a Burning Man regional. We declined because you're right, they are effectively quasi-franchises with franchise fees to use their logo and to use their principles. And while that obviously would be a great jumpstart - the burners that only want to go to Burning Man-authorized or Burning Man-branded event would surely come to it - we felt that it was time to do an experiment to try to do it on our own, for better or worse.

​Dr. Yes: I understand that, and really, it’s very much within the original Burning Man ethos as a social experiment.

Is there anything else you wanted to you want people to know, before we wrap this up? Is there anything you want to make sure you communicate? This is your chance.

​Mathew: There's a couple of things. People ask why don't we just replicate what Plan B did in 2021, and there's some facts I think are important to realize about Plan B and the playa, which are really the impact on public money and on trash.

So, for instance, the payments that we're making for cost recovery to the Bureau of Land Management, while they’re expensive, it's even more expensive for the Bureau of Land Management in terms of tax dollars to manage the playa for just the non event that’s called Juplaya. That’s just shy of 100k for them to deal with Juplaya. Plan B? I don't have a hard number, but the rumor mill says the costs incurred by the state of Nevada were over a million for medical alone, and there’s nobody reimbursing the tax payers for that.
 
And then also in the after-action report for Plan B. Burning Man’s metric for having a permit year over year is that they're going to have no more than one square foot of trash per acre. Plan B's trash was 160 square feet of debris per acre, so 160 times more than what the limit is for Burning Man.

I'd say in terms of why are you paying for this, you're also paying for a non-dispersed camping experience that’s responsible to the land and the public that owns that land. The porta potties are there, the medical crew is there, the Leave No Trace program is there, and our LNT partner, which is another camp, they're actually doing landfill diversion: before the trash goes into the dumpster, they're actually separating things that could be recycled or upcycled.

Another point is there's freedom to enter and exit easily. We’ll all have wristbands and so you can do everything you would expect at Juplaya. You can go out to the hot springs, you can visit all the other camps. There's no intention of exclusivity, it was just sort of forced upon us by the BLM.

​I think the final thing I want to say is that we're very close to not happening at all. We really need these ticket sales or a big donation. I think to make it again through this month, we need $50k like I said before. And that's our medical bill. So that's why I say every day, like, are we going to survive? We don’t know at this point.

 Dr. Yes: That’s rough. I hope you and your team can pull it off.  It certainly seems like there is latent demand out there for a burner-adjacent event on Black Rock just based on the massive supply-demand imbalance with Burning Man tickets.

Although, someone was asking if we’re going to have to start seeing online bloodsport feuds between Burners and Everywheners over what’s the better event? I hope not. It sounds so tiresome and lame.

Mathew: There’s no competition here. This is really a good way for artists to get more than one grant. Let’s say you got an honoraria from Burning Man – you could get an extra grant from us too if you have a funding gap. You don’t need to look at it like a competition, but more like a pressure relief valve for people who can’t get BM tickets or who just want to go to two organized events in the Black Rock in the summer.

The only other thing I would say is you can go to Everywhenproject.org/donate if you want to be a fiscal donor. It’s tax deductible obviously. We really only need seven camps, seven modestly-sized camps maybe like 25 people per camp. Seven camps like that buy their tickets and we’ll be ok. We’re that close. We also have our Mojave event that’s definitely happening.

​Dr. Yes: Alright, one last question, but it’s a big one. I hope you're sitting down.

How do you feel about mustard? And what kind of mustard do you like the best?

Mathew: I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question...what?

Dr. Yes: How do you feel about mustard? And what kind of mustard do you think is best suited for Everywhen? 

​Mathew: Oh! Well, being a California native, there’s a bunch on the hill right behind my house. Grind that up and serve it!
 
I do enjoy a…boy, what's the name of it? A German mustard that’s kind of spicy. It's very good. It's got like peppercorns in it. 

​Dr. Yes: Like a spicy coarse-ground mustard?

​Mathew: Oh, yes! That's what I enjoy. But I think actually the right question would be what sort of drink is the drink of choice at the Everywhen and so far it's been a spicy Bloody Mary. No mustard in that though.

​Dr. Yes: Yet.

​Mathew: But perhaps we can add a mustard flower.

Dr. Yes: I love it!
 
Okay, I wish you the best of luck on ticket sales. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. I hope you pull it off this year and I hope you come back with lessons learned for 2023.

This is Dr. Yes, signing off. Stay dusty, my friends!

Ready to sign up? Then I'm ready to take your money and welcome you to the construction phase of the Forever Home for Jaded Burners! Remember: the faster you build it, the quicker you'll have somewhere to sleep.

Dr. Yes: How has the move to remote work gone? Do you see a future with more staff working from home? If so, do you think that going forward there will be a lot more hires from different parts of the country and world that don’t require San Francisco-level salaries? 

Maid Marian: All of the above is on the table. The rising cost of living in the Bay Area has been a factor for a while. We opened an office in Reno last year and 14 year-round employees are currently based there.

Before COVID we had been working on a 3-5 year plan for supporting a more distributed work model. That plan has now been expedited. Part of the distributed work model does allow us to hire outside the Bay Area, and makes it possible for staff to move out of the area if necessary.

The transition to working remotely has gone quite well. We recently conducted a survey with staff and the vast majority report a high level of satisfaction with working from home.

​We have long been a global organization, and have engaged employees and contractors based in various places across the country and around the world.
​

Dr. Yes: Relatedly, has there been any thought given to transitioning HQ to a less expensive city (Reno, etc) to save on future expenses?

Maid Marian: We are actively exploring many different options for saving on rent and operational expenses. These include moving the San Francisco office, downsizing the office, increasing our presence in Reno, and moving to a more distributed workforce.

That said, we have a very significant volunteer base and active community in San Francisco. It’s the original home of the event so there is a huge local community that supports us on many levels. Decades of relationship building and significant financial investments have been made in the area. We can’t just move the office and expect people to follow.

Our landlord in San Francisco has been collaborating with us and has given us a reduced rate on our rent for the remainder of this year.
​

Dr. Yes: I know there have been staff cuts and, of course, a lot of seasonal workers who aren’t being/won’t be hired this year, and I gather there were salary cuts as well. How many full-time staff had to be let go? About how much did that save?

Maid Marian: We can’t gut the staff and expect to be ready to pull off a cultural gathering the size and scale of Black Rock City as safely and efficiently as we have in the past so we are doing everything possible to keep our incredibly hardworking staff members employed.

​That said, we have made some cuts to contractors, seasonal staff, and laid off a very limited number of our year-round, full-time staff. These staffing changes, combined with cuts to operational costs and primarily the elimination of the costs we preliminarily budgeted and expected to incur producing Black Rock City, represent an estimated monthly savings of roughly $2,600,000 (of course it depends on the month since our costs vary greatly depending on the time of year). This is based on estimated and projected numbers. Additional note: This is unaudited financial information as of June 16, 2020 and represents our best estimates. Audited financial information from 2020 will be available in 2021.
​

Dr. Yes: Has there been any meaningful movement from the Bureau of Land Management on a potential refund of the ~$1.9m that’s been paid to them so far this year? If not, do you think it’s likely to happen?

Maid Marian: We’ve received the vast majority of those funds from the BLM, but are now debating some expenses related to the 2020 event they claim to have already incurred.
​

Dr. Yes: I'm sure it's a huge relief to have gotten most of that back as well as the PPP money. 

That April 30th Journal article talked about reaching out to direct donors to garner large donations. Does the source of the money to save Burning Man matter in your eyes, in the sense of how much comes from mega donors vs. a lot of smaller community member donors? Is there worry that taking money from big donors means they expect something in return? Placement for their camp or something? How do you navigate those relationships organizationally?

Maid Marian: We are clear up front that there is no tangible reward for a major donor, except the joy of saving Burning Man. We raised the funds to purchase Fly Ranch and there were no tangible rewards for major donors. It’s about identifying and working with contributors who know and understand our culture, and are interested in gifting in the true sense of the word.

We don’t want donations only coming from high-dollar donors. We think it’s important to demonstrate support from across the community more broadly. To that end, our fundraising plan creates opportunities for everyone to participate in securing the future of Burning Man, at all levels.

We are preparing to launch a crowd-funding campaign with some fun gifts for donors. We are also seeking donations from those who have the capacity to make a larger gift. We believe all sizes of gifts are necessary to our survival. 

​We are not willing to offer placement or other perks within Black Rock City in exchange for donations. In fact we have a public Statement of Values on Gifting to that effect, which can be found here: https://burningman.org/network/about-us/statement-of-values-on-gifting

​Our hope with our fundraising strategies is to 1). Ensure the survival of the organization and our ability to produce Black Rock City and 2). Prevent the need to drastically increase the price of tickets to Black Rock City in the future.
​

Dr. Yes: Speaking of the community, unless you had DGS tickets this year, which is only a portion of the Burning Man community, all that’s been heard about the fundraising is crickets. There was the one Journal post on the 30th and that’s pretty much it. Why not more outreach to the broad community, vs just theme camp leaders and DGS holders? Burning Man has meant a lot to a lot more people than that group, I think. [Note: recall that I had sent that question in mid-May.]

Maid Marian:  We 100% agree. On Friday, May 22 I sent a newsy email with a soft ask to 2017, 2018, and 2019 ticket buyers. We received some donations from this ask, less than $45,000.

I felt strongly that we couldn’t ask for anything until we completed the process for the DGS refunds and donations so that we had a better sense of where we stood financially. This took time, and meanwhile we were doing math and chasing dollars with different agencies and trying to determine how much of the PPP loan was forgivable. It took real time to get good numbers, and we have enough money to get through a few months so we wanted to launch thoughtful campaigns not created in a hurry.

We are in this for the long haul. We’re going to be fundraising for the foreseeable future and are taking steps accordingly. We plan to reach out to the entire community, in many ways. In addition to reaching out to individuals with the capacity to give large donations, we’ll be emailing specific groups, launching a general crowd-funding campaign, working with theme camps, volunteers, the regional network and others to help support our fundraising efforts.

We also fully recognize the unique global moment we’re in, where lives and livelihoods are being lost due to COVID-19, and efforts to raise money for pandemic relief are a top priority. And when the Black Lives Matter movement gained renewed momentum we knew that wasn’t the time to be launching anything for Burning Man.

​That said, we still believe the world needs and will need Burning Man more than ever. Art and creativity inspire connection and community, and we want to be able to keep nurturing creative culture, civic engagement, and collaboration.

Dr. Yes: One sentiment I hear a lot is that people want to donate to save Burning Man, the event, and resent that some of their donations will go to support the Project’s other activities. Two questions here: Can you tell us about what % of the Org’s revenue goes for things that don’t directly contribute to putting on Burning Man? People would be interested to hear that broken down to the high-level functions (Burning Man, regional support, Fly Ranch, BWB, philosophical center, whatever else).

Maid Marian: A lot of this information is available in public documents including our 990s and Annual Reports.  Our most recent one for 2019 is available here, and in the financials section you can see that more than 80% of Burning Man Project’s costs are spent on Black Rock City. On that same page you can find the breakdown of costs for other program areas. On page 3 of the 2018 990 you can see that a little over $1.25 million went toward “civic engagement” in 2018, which includes the Regional Network and Burners Without Borders. On this page you can see a detailed breakdown of BRC-related expenses:  https://burningman.org/expenses/. All of this info is for the most recent year that we have audited financial info available, which is 2018.

The financials give some helpful information but it’s also important to understand that our work is very intertwined across program areas. We are all working on Black Rock City while simultaneously supporting the global culture in the world. 

​We can’t really do one without the other. It would be irresponsible (in terms of the impact of Burning Man on the wider world) not to nurture and support the people who are taking the culture out into their communities to make Burning Man happen. The culture is more than Black Rock City. Those who “resent the other activities” are welcome to reflect on whether they think they want to participate in Black Rock City since the other programs are deeply wrapped around the events and vice versa. It’s unfortunate more people don’t see beyond the celebratory event and recognize the power of change from Burning Man can be manifested outside of the event. We’re just supporting the existing do-ocracy. It would happen without us, and does. And ultimately, the amount of money spent on initiatives beyond Black Rock City is minimal.

Dr. Yes: ​There are people wondering why the Org cited protecting the structure of its ticket distribution as a reason to deny the FOIA request to the BLM since the ticket distribution is public. Can you shed some light on why there’s a need to protect that info, even though it’s made public on your site? It looks pretty odd from the outside, and brings up questions from people about how tickets are actually distributed. 

Maid Marian: The Bureau of Land Management routinely steps beyond its authority in the administration of the Burning Man Special Recreation Permit, as illustrated by its intent to provide confidential FOIA-exempt information about the Burning Man organization and Black Rock City operations to a member of the public. While our general ticket distribution structure is indeed public on our website, the financial details of our business, beyond what is required by the IRS for our nonprofit (with which we comply every year), are not. BLM can not decide to supersede FOIA and IRS requirements, and that is why we took a stand. We believe that the court will agree with us.

​This most recent FOIA incident is fundamentally about oversight of BLM’s processes and is yet another example of the agency’s unwillingness to work cooperatively with Burning Man or other Nevada permittees on federally managed lands. As a federal agency, BLM is obligated to work for the public good, but our recent experience with them is that they are less and less inclined to take the time needed to consult appropriately with us or to ensure their decisions are fair. We have to defend ourselves at every turn.
​

Dr. Yes: I’m not going to ask you to speculate on the chances that Covid-19 prevents Burning Man 2021 from happening as nobody can really predict that right now, but how big of a threat is the apparently deteriorating relationship with the BLM to holding BM 2021?

Maid Marian: New impositions and unnecessary cost requirements from BLM are making the future viability of producing Black Rock City on BLM public lands extremely challenging.

In 2014 BMP was required to pay BLM $3.5 million in costs -  300% more than in 2011, even though Black Rock City's population grew by only 39% during that period. We were also required to pay a million dollars in recreation fees. To this day, BLM overcharges BMP and continues to increase costs each year. We paid BLM nearly $5 million to permit our event in 2019. Then BLM increased their costs by another $500k approximately for 2020 (if we were going to hold the event). 

We have shared with senior agency officials that we can no longer agree with nor are we willing to be subjected to outrageous and unjustified demands in order to secure the necessary permit.

In cooperation with BLM and state & local agencies, we have responsibly held the Burning Man event in the Black Rock Desert for nearly 30 years. We take our responsibility as stewards of public lands seriously and have passed every post-event environmental inspection, under standards that we believe are the strictest in the country.  

We are coming out of a multi-year Environmental Impact Statement process that exposed recurring and new concerns, including BLM’s attempt to impose unreasonable and wholly unjustified mitigations like dumpsters, private security, and concrete barriers in BRC. 

​All of that said, our hope is that this year will provide a reset opportunity with our relationship with the BLM. We are already seeing some evidence of that happening.
​

Dr. Yes: Relatedly, if the relationship with the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) frays to the point that it’s not feasible to hold the event on public lands, is there any plan B that’s workable? For the sake of argument, let’s say workable without significantly shrinking the event.

Maid Marian: In the past we’ve researched quite a few alternative sites. There are options in a few different places with different variables and different compromises. We always have backup plans. Our hope, however, is that this year without Black Rock City will create the space and time for a ‘reset’ in our relationship with the BLM and that we’ll be able to return to our home in the Black Rock Desert in 2021.

We are the largest user of public land in this format so the difficulties are expected, but the failure to work with us in a respectful way and the petty bureaucratic maneuvers at the local level have been incredibly frustrating.

​Overall we’ve always had to negotiate with the BLM. The more complex we became, the more complex the negotiations and challenges. We’ve suffered from a lack of leadership at the BLM at the state level, but that’s been rectified and we’re working well with the new state director. 
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Dr. Yes: Can you confirm that a DPW member committed suicide after not being hired on for the season? Is there anything the Org can/is doing to help folks who are imperiled like that due to being laid off or not hired as expected? Is there anything the community can do? 

Maid Marian: DPW did lose a crew member to suicide recently. They were eligible for rehire but that process hadn't started yet. We have no reason to believe the suicide was related, but it is no less heartbreaking to lose a member of our community.

We have offered support services like counseling and listening circles, and are investing in additional tools and resources for supporting the needs of our people and keeping the community connected, especially the core staff who build Black Rock City each year. We’ve held two all-staff meetings for this group, and I’ve reached out to them personally via email. The people who make BRC possible are truly one big family, and we are pulling together to help everyone through this difficult time.

There are a few support sites that the community has stepped forward to create too.  Leveler is a peer to peer wealth distribution tool. The aim is to provide a platform for those who are being financially impacted by the current economic crisis to reach out for help, and for those who can help to be able to connect with them. The Leveler team had made one for the Burning Man community here. 

Also BRC Aid is a mutual aid project for the staff and volunteers of Black Rock City. It’s a system where people can contribute their skills and services, and ask for help. Hundreds have already contributed.
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Dr. Yes: ​Let's wrap up with some personal questions! What does Burning Man (the event) mean to you, today?

Maid Marian: It’s an annual ritual; it’s something I've helped facilitate. I’ve made new friends and it’s changed my life. I feel very fortunate to have been able to contribute to something so magical. 
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Dr. Yes: So where do you find your magic on the playa/in BRC after so many years?

Maid Marian: ​The magic for me is in helping bring our camp together. We had 250 people from 30 countries in 2018. Some are staff and family, some are board members, some are people we meet when traveling, which includes, artists, event producers, politicians, community and business leaders, and all kinds of people. It’s very rewarding to bring people together. I’m doing the closest thing to running a theme camp which makes me happy. I’m pretty sure that if I wasn’t doing what I’m doing I’d be part of a super fun theme camp that came back year after year.
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​Dr. Yes:  What’s the biggest mistake you think you’ve made as CEO of Burning Man, or perhaps as de facto CEO before you had the title? Conversely, what are you proudest of having done in that role?

Maid Marian: Matt, the trouble with these two questions is that they focus on me and what I am proud of or not proud of. I am pleased with the way I work hard to contribute and look for the best in everyone and strive to help make the world a better place with Burning Man. But I can’t say there is any one thing I am most proud of or that there is a single biggest mistake as CEO. There isn’t anything that isn’t done in the company of others. The work is collaborative in nature. I am CEO because I was asked to take the role and I am suited for the demands and have the skill set. I see decisions as opportunities to move forward and in some cases we have to make a new decision. I’m more a “pound in t-stakes for the fence” sort of person. So there isn’t anything I can remark about that I feel singularly proud of as CEO except to say that we should all be proud of the event having such a long life with more to live. It isn’t by accident that we have prevailed when others think we should stop. It is by sheer force of will by many that we are still making Black Rock City happen!
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Thanks so much for the answers, Marian!